The State of Scottish ClimbingYOUR COMMENTSThe debate on the future ethics of the sport in Scotland. Please take time to read the articles and the comments from and send your considered views on the new draft guidance to the MCofS, using the form at the foot of this page. YOUR COMMENTS
Grant Farquhar writes: Any attempt to draw up vague guidelines is doomed to failure and looks simply like an attempt to draw a line under the existing list of bolting allowed "exceptions" which will again be ignored.
In my opinion there should at least be no bolts in the mountains in Scotland and that includes the existing bolts in Creag A Bhancair.
Ben W writes: I would say Scotland is world class in its own way because there are very few places if any that can compare to the style of climbing available, which is hard onsight trad. There are alot of trad routes here in Switzerland that would easily rate Scottish IX and X and there are a fair few folk climbing them. These routes are usually pretty dangerous, very pumpy with thin desperate ice and turf. But the people who are putting these routes up often at Scottish IX onsight and groundup are awesome drytoolers. The evidence is here to be seen that drytooling on steep ground has had a direct effect on the standards of traditional climbing.
Having seen standards rise here (in switzerland) on trad routes due to drytooling it would be easy for one to say go and bolt up lines and start tooling everything. Scotland would not really offer very good quality lines like this for one and secondly we do not have the rock resources like other countries who have crags everywhere you look. Also personally I dont think I would want to waste my time trying to chase fickle conditons for a very rairly in condition single pitch sport mixed route, who knows though maybe one day I may stumble accross an amazing line like mission impossible and eat my words! If you want to get really fit though like these continentals book an easy jet flight and go to Europe for a month or two!
Gavin Macfie says: The UK in general and Scotland in particular has a unique style of climbing that is the envy of thinking climbers the world over.
There is more than enough sport climbing in the rest of the world. What the world is short of is traditional climbing. When bolt-clipping in spain I met a group of Norweigans, one of whom had spent a year living in York purely so he could enjoy the pleasures of boltless cragging. What we have is unique and should be preserved.
Climbing to me is about making a vertical journey through the wilderness, relying on my own resources to get from the ground to the top and ideally leaving the ground in between in as pristine a condition as I found it.
Erick Baillot adds perespective
I think that jenny has got a point there. I'm not Scottish either and futhermore I come from a country where bolts are numerous: France.Let me tell you what happens there: If you are not part of the elite people gravitating around Cham you may well go through 12 years of climbing in a mountainous area (south alps) and never see arock, let alone set a belay.
Mostly people there have lost interest/ will to do adventurous climbing - I am talking about the average but keen climber.
I absolutly love climbing in Scotland. I love the commitment, I love the spirit, I love the ethic. I would not change it for anything if it was just for me. Add to this that it is now nearly as expensive to climb in scotland as it is to fly out to Font or South of France or Spain sport crags.
So I am thinking: if you want to find bolts why not go there and let Scotland remained a stronghold of bold climbing.
Jon Ashdown writes: Bolts need to be put into context. The drive to the crag, the manufacture of our clothing and equipment, all exact a far greater toll on the environment than the placing of a few short metal stubs in a rock face.
Rampant widespread bolting simply has not taken place despite often alarmist cries. And bolting has generally taken place on crags not lending themselves to a traditional approach.
However there are sad exceptions, notably Creag A Bhancair, because the extra bolts have reduced what were once extremely committing and respect demanding routes to stress free sports routes in a pretty setting, if still physically demanding.
There's lots of rock out there to accommodate different visions of climbing. Retro-bolting should be taboo, along with the bolting of established trad roadside, seacliff, mountain crags, and quarried rock. But what about new crags and blank sections of existing crags ? The difficulty is always in the grey area and how bold does something have to be before bolts are justified ? And what's wrong with bolts in winter on appropriate lines if we're happy to have them in summer ?
Mike Reed says: I know Scott, we climbed together a few times in the early to mid 90's, and it pains me to see him making pompus, long winded and aggresive statements, and taking massive decisions, on his own without thought or regard for his friends and peers, and more importantly, Scotlands mountains!
I hope that Scott's friendship with Kev does not undermine due process, and that other well known 'string pullers' are not swayed into supporting Scotts actions.
In summary, I support limited bolting on rock, as per the accepted guidlines and in agreed special cases. Dry tool in quarries all you like but, LEAVE BOLTS OUT OF OUR WINTER MOUNTAINS.
Wilf Holland comes to the same conclusion; For background I come at this from the perspective of a mid range 'weekender' Scottish winter climber with probably an average level of experience (i.e. more than 100 winter climbs at all grades up to and including Grade V). I also have a fair amount of climbing and mountaineering experience overseas and so have climbed in areas where bolts are the norm'. Therefore, my views aren't those of someone pushing at the edges of what's possible in climbing, but they may be in line with many of Scottish climbings rank and file.
For me the essence of Scottish Winter climbing is it's adventure. Crucial elements of this adventure for me are the ephemeral nature of the climbs; the challenges of the weather; the feeling of stepping in to the relatively unknown (even when on established classics) and the challenges involved in reducing the risks to acceptable levels for myself. For me reducing the risks involves choice of route, day, choice of weight carried, speed of movement and choice and type of protection carried and used etc.
Bolting on Scottish mountain crags would, for me, reduce the adventure and challenge of the experience. From discussions with climbing partners etc. I feel this is the consensus view of the majority of Scottish winter climbers (although I realise that's based on a relatively small sample).
I'm aware of and have sympathy with the "plenty of space for every style" type arguments. However, I believe that creep from one or two locations in to the wider mountain environment would be likely to occur if bolted routes were accepted on a winter Scottish mountain crag (e.g. Ben Udlaidh).
I'm giving my opinion on this as I believe the consensus view is being sought as a way of defining the MCofS approach looking forward. I understand the consensus view of practitioners is what is being sought, I believe it can currently be summed up as "no bolts on Scottish Winter mountain crags".
Alastair Robertson has strong opinions: With regard to bolting in summer and the "feel of the crag" line proposed by the MCofS, if something is like that is published it will not be worth the paper it is written on!! Better to produce something more definitive or not bother. The last policy was often ignored and this one will definitely be- new routers have done as they wish and completely arbitary decisions are being made. Just look at the bolts appearing next to perfectly protectable cracklines in the quarries (eg Idiot Savant, Ballater), sunny side of Glen Ogle, Glen Lednock etc. etc.
I ALSO STRONGLY DISAGREE with the statement that anything goes on quarried rock- what utter tosh! You do not see a no ethics culture in quarry climbing venues today in other parts of the UK eg. Millstone, Ilkley, Avon etc etc.
Come on MCofS get off the fence and produce something meaningful or save your time and ours and don't bother.
Iain Simpson writes: Also the 'thin edge of the wedge' argument is paranoid propaganda as 99% of people want the adventure experience, and the winter traditions are so strong as to render a mass creep towards winter sport climbing or retro bolting futile. because of this there really is no place for bolts on the routes and faces that have developed the great Scottish tradition, even probably Beinn Udlaidh despite my own personal misgivings about the place.
However, if someone wants to develop some high outcrop that no-one has bothered about before then fine by me, though I doubt that many people would be bothered to do that, instead of the hundreds of fantastic adventurous routes that are already on offer.
Norrie Muir has his say: All participants in Scottish winter mountaineering have something in common, no matter what grade of climb they do. This style and ethics that unites us all is ground-up leads with the leader placing the protection. The proposal where bolts are placed for protection for certain winter routes, but not others is nonsensical and elitist.
Styles and ethics change over time and they should be reviewed, however, retrospective approval by the majority should not be automatic to the latest trend advocated by a miniscule few, no matter who they are.
I am not normally comfortable with what is regarded as traditional, however, one thing should not change is "The use of bolts on winter climbs is considered unacceptable".
David C Wilson suggests:
Neil Carnegie writes:
On the other hand... If you say it's OK to bolt in the mountains in winter, then logically it is in summer too - and I'm don't think i like the idea of that. I'm also not sure that very many people asides from Scott actually want this change to happen, and i don't think it should unless there is a decent section of our community behind it rather than a few self promoting individuals. There also seems to be a real lack of venues for the climbing to take place at anyways, with Scotland being a bit short on the jug peppered icicle dripping cave front (unless they plan to get the drills out newtyle style and maunfacture routes - which is shocking even there)with most of our crags lending themselves to trad better.
So personally do i want to see bolts in out hills... no... but if enough people did and they were to operate only in their own areas.... maybe?
Andrew Meldrum has more thoughts: What also feels wrong to me is bolts in mountains. Everything I read by Scott Muir on the subject makes me cringe. He flashed every route he recently created on Beinn Udlaigh - how does creating low grade mixed climbs help advance Scottish climbing? To me, all it will do is erode the long-held Scottish approach to climbing, particularly winter climbing.
I read Dave Mcleods account of the Hurting recently, and was impressed by his pride in not even using pegs. To me this embeds the Scottish approach still further, as many of the pegs that litter the Scottish mountains would not have been placed had modern gear been available.
Why are bolts unacceptable, when pegs once were? The answer lies in the style. Pegs were placed on lead, the gaps betwen them telling their own story about the approach of the people who placed them. Bolts are closer together, placed frequently by abseil. The aim of the person placing is not to get himself safely to the top that day, but to create a leisure pursuit for others, or a challenge for themselves to work on over time.
Thats not to say bolts do not have their place. Where the rock is not suitable, and the general surroundings are those were peolpe may go to train and play, they have their place. But the mountain environment is not this, and I would hate to be part of the generation that tried to make it so.
The 2nd reason I have stayed away is I am acutely aware of the limitations of the MCofS. Of my current regular climbing partners, I am the only one who came to climbing through the more traditional route of hillwalking, the scrambling etc. The rest all started in climbing walls. And I am the only one who is a member of the MCofS. The MCofS is not a police force. It can set guidelines. But it faces two challenges. One is to set pure, meaningful guidelines, based on ethics, principles, as these are the only ones that will ever mean anything. The secons is to get people to follow the guidelines. Not just the leading exponents of bolting, but the climbing wall generation that is growing up now.
My fear is that the proposed set have started out based on principle, but have then been skewed to allow cerain interests in.
Finally, I am an accountant. Accountants are governed by a myriad of rules, all of which are underpinned by, and are consistent to, four basic principles. Could the same be said for the existing guidelines? Yes? Could the same be said for the new proposals, if bolted mountain routes are permitted? I suspect the answer is no. And guidelines without consistency won't work.
This from Rob Strachan: I still find it incredible to hear that there are no hard guidelines on this issue and the fact that some climbers are up for bolting up winter cliffs is pretty worrying. What's next......will some group come up with the idea of fixing via ferrata on the Cuillin Ridge, engineer another fairground train ride up one of Scotlands mountains, etc, etc? As far as I'm concerned these examples are all in the same vein as bolting - these solutions allow those that are not capable of utilising natural features on the rock and mountains to overcome their lack of ability 'to conquer' through engineered solutions. The bottom line is, I suppose people want to get 'the tick' at any available opportunity, but in the process they degrade the whole experience for others.
At the same time I'm not surprised to hear this view. A large organisation such as MCofS ultimately has to toe a compromising line to appease it's members of whom represent a wide range of views, rather than come off the fence and come out with a definitive statement on bolting crags. After all, what is the MCofS's mission statement....are they an organisation that exists to protect the landscape for the enjoyment of it's members, or is it an organisation that is an approved sounding board for some who seek to exploit the mountains for their own egos? More and more people are turning to various outdoor sports every year and I think it's important to get the ethics of utilising Scotlands landscape ingrained now, otherwise in future, people will look back and realise that the time to make a difference has passed.
Mark Worsley says: Bolts on Creag a Bhancair and Craig y Barns are ok as these bits of crag are no use for trad, and are an asset having been bolted. Same applies to eg. Lower Lednock and Benny Beg.
Blank bits of quarry should be fair game.
On the other hand, I would be very much against bolting Slime Wall, or Rannoch Wall, or the bold bits of the East Face of Aonach Dubh, or the Etive Slabs. Or Stanage.
I support the draft policy as it is a sensible, real world approach.
Dave Hunter is for the status quo: The MCoS has an admirable policy regarding Bolts on winter routes. There is no need to change it at the behest of one or two individuals.
Mark McGowan disagrees:
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