The State of Scottish Climbing The debate on the future ethics of the sport in Scotland. Please take time to read the articles and the comments from and send your considered views on the new draft guidance to the MCofS, using the form at the foot of this page.  YOUR COMMENTS  page 1     page 2     page 3     page4 Wayne says: re: summer rock climbing. as in those wishing to lead a route should be given priority over those top roping or abseiling. granted about the abseiling but not so far as saying that anyone lead climbing should have priority over any other climber. makes it too elitest and a person may also be practising a route. as long as a person doesnt hog a route for ages then whats the problem about what way you get up it. Alan McDonald says: The development of summer sports climbs in Scotland is certainly increasing but not at a wildfire rate. I think people are now more wary to use a gung-ho approach and will more likley consult others before grabbing the HILTI! I feel that to really get the most out of a crag. The developer first has to find out if there are any other users and respect any lines they may have claimed, although these may not be common knowlage. Then comes the task of getting the "feel" of the crag. This presents some problems. Firstly is the clarity of such a statement. The crag may be on a hillside but looking down on an industrial wasteland or the access is grim but the wall offers no traditional protection. It is suggested that if the later is the case then the crag should stay untouched until a better climber comes along and claims it at E-silly. But where if anywhere do we draw the line. I feel that there will always be exeptions to the rule and the only way of keeping friends is through deep consultation with other users, landowners and local ethics on an individual case by case basis. Es Tresidder says: Scotts comment that winter only lines cannot offer the very hardest challenge for the future generation is wrong in my opinion. They may not be the sort of lines that Scott is interested in climbing, but there is no doubt that there are some mega hard winter only lines out there. I can think of several walls in Scotland that are big, winter only (unless you are a complete pervert), and have lines that are likely to be harder than anything that has been climbed anywhere in the world ground up without bolts. This may not be Scott's idea of the future, but there is no doubt in my mind that the difficulties are out there without resorting to winter ascents of harder and harder summer rock routes. Erik Brunskill says: I fear for the future of Scottish winter climbing when I read the comments from high profile climbers like Scott Muir. I respect Scott for his passion and enthusiasm for continental style Mixed climbing, but surely the way forward is to apply the skills, techniques and strength gained on the hardest M routes, to climb, in a traditional ethical manner, the long and desperate Scottish winter climbs of the future? Lets face it we all know the lines are there. Fortunately, with local young activists like Guy Robertson, Es Tressider and Pete Benson, I think the future of Scottish winter climbing is exceptionally bright. Witness their application of skills and courage gained on the long, sustained and committing winter climbs in Scotland, to the frozen big walls of the greater ranges. This is exciting proof of Scotlands current and future place in world mountaineering. Trends come and go, sponsors come and go, but for over a century Scotland has had worldwide respect and admiration for its unique winter climbing style. Traditions passed down from generation to generation should not be dropped for the sake of commercial gain and global fashionable trends. I am wholeheartedly against bolting Scottish winter climbs. Jenny Lingenhult writes: Exactly what ethics are the MCofS supposed to stand for? It seems to me like the members have higher ethics than the council who should defend them and set a standard. Like with environmental issues there need be regulatory boards which do not have any vested interest in the matters and will stand their ground despite pressure from influential parties. Scotland does not have routes like the ones you can find on the continent, bolted or not. It is special partly because of that. If you're looking for long bolted routes, reliable ice-climbing conditions or suchlike go somewhere else. I am not Scottish but I live here and feel very strongly for what this 'wee' country has to offer. I moved from Sweden (which has handrails, so I've heard, on its highest peak due to people having fallen off it in the past), and the mountains have been a major factor in my deciding to stay here. I very much appreciate the small scale wildness of Scotland, something I can easily access every weekend if I choose to. If I wanted something else I would move, not try to change it. I am not a hard climber, never will be and do not aspire to be. I will push myself as far as I see suitable, and take the risks I am willing to take according to the circumstances. I am not saying that doing bolted routes is a push-over but it is a way of making Tom, Dick and Harry able to ascend routes which, in my view, they should not attempt. If the line they are tempted with offers risks they do not wish to take then that is when they should back away. This society is in every area trying to take away the risks in people's lives. Please let at least the mountains remain free from further safety nets. Give people information and let them take informed decisions as to what risks they wish to take or avoid. Mountaineering is a risk sport, let it remain that way and do not educate the growing group of young climbers differently. The way the MCofS is going it will soon have people putting up bolts wherever they want to make it 'safe'. People should learn to accept when routes are beyond their ability and either improve their ability or admit defeat. The Scottish hills should not be brought down to the level of our climbers, we should aspire to the level of our country. tony writes: Back in the 1980's I was very active, going 'full time' to climb in Scottish winters for about 5 years. I have been away from the sport since about '92. I cannot believe that we are having this discussion. I believe it is the thin edge of the wedge and it is only a matter of time before the last bastion of real adventure in this country is reduced to the lowest common denominator. I'm not often right, but fear this time I'm right on the button. Bolts are for climbing walls and caves. Courage is required for winter routes, or rather it used to be. Andy Cloquet writes: My main concern is that these guidelines are not really needed by the majority of climbers who love the sport, respect its history and understand it's limitations and possibilities in the Scottish context. The guidlines are, in effect, intended for those pitiful glory-seekers and wannabes who don't accept their responsibilities as climbers and think they can import other countries ethics, interfere with established and unwritten 'rules' simply to achieve their moment of self-lit stardom: and they're going to be the last people to read and the least bit interested in our guidelines, should we ever be able to agree on what we do and don't want to happen. Iain Forrest writes: My main problem with this proposal is that it is my firm belief that there should be no bolting in the Scottish hills and mountains. Scottish mountaineering is special, not because of the scale of the hills or routes - they are mostly tiny compared to those elsewhere - and not because of the technical grade Scots climb at - we are hardly cutting edge in this. It is because of the wild feel of our hills and the adventurous nature of our mountaineering. Bolting can only take away from this. The more widespread bolting becomes and the less people object to it the more the question will change from 'Is it acceptable to bolt mountain routes?' to 'Which mountain routes is it acceptable to bolt?' This will lead to very widespread bolting of routes at all grades in our hills, seriously eroding our climbing ethic and making our mountains much less of a special place to climb. In addition, it is my belief that bolts should be removed from mountain routes within Scotland wherever they are already placed. Climbing in our hills should be about adventure, exploration and self-reliance, not following a line of glinting metal to the top of your waymarked route then abbing back down it in time for afternoon tea. I feel that this is especially true in winter, but that it also applies in summer and that it is nothing to do with the grade of the route being climbed. It seems a shame if our cutting-edge climbers feel the need to reduce routes to their level rather than aspiring to the routes. If a route is too hard or too dangerous, leave it - someone else might be able to do it. I can't see the difference between a top climber bolting a high grade route so they can do it and myself bolting, say, a bold E4 or winter VI so that I can climb something I can otherwise not aspire to. Better to climb as hard as you are able and wish to, and admit that some things may be beyond you. For those who do wish to climb such routes - there are plenty of places where you can do so, so why compromise Scottish mountaineering to make it a little more convenient for yourself? With regards to bolting low-lying crags, I am against retrobolting - if somebody has managed to climb the route previously there should be no need to dumb it down for others. With regards to low-lying venues which are poorly suited to trad climbing I can see little reason why sports routes should not be developed, and I have no problem with people dry-tooling in quarries on lines that are not established trad climbs. In summary, I believe that there are venues in Scotland where bolted climbing is acceptable and see no reason why people should not enjoy these, but I firmly believe that sports climbing should have no place in Scottish mountaineering. I feel that the MCofS guidelines should reflect this approach, which I believe to be close to the opinion of most Scottish mountaineers. ian mccabe writes: Summer: The previous guidelines seemed a perfectly reasonable compromise between the wishes of those wanting to develop sports climbs, and those who wished to protect the "traditional ethos". In the interim, there has been development of a number of crags as sports venues which breach these guidelines. Point 3, relating to climbs of "a high order of difficulty" appears to have been particularly redundant to the bolters. Sports crags have- through consumer demand- moved into the lower grades. The widespread disregard for the previous guidelines seems to have prompted the proposed changes. While none of the recent developments gives serious cause for concern, I am worried that the new guideline definitions of "Character" and "Overall impression" of crags seem very woolly, and open to abuse. Winter: I am saddened that the introduction to the recent "draft" guidelines seems to imply that bolt protection on Scottish winter routes could now be acceptable. ("sports style.both in winter and summer") Scotland's winter climbing heritage is unique in its unpredictability, (due to climatic conditions) and in the purity of its ground-up, onsight ethic, and is internationally recognised as such. Those who wish to train for continental "M" grade routes should think hard about the future consequences for Scottish climbing if they start bolting winter crags. Just as in the summer arena, there will be increased pressures (both commercial and through consumer demand) to bring the bolts "down the grades" and "up into the mountains". Donald Morris writes: Overall, I'm against the use of bolts in winter climbing in Scotland. I understand and indeed have some sympathy with the view that overall climbing in this country will not progress (whatever that is) to the same extent as on the continent should we choose not use bolts and those types of tactics. We have to be aware of the issues that surround the reasons people want to use bolts and don't want to use them. Also, what advantages would their use bring to the general climber in Scotland? I do not doubt that use of bolts would produce a rise in standards in purely grade terms but I do doubt whether the effect on Scottish Winter Climbing of this approach is desirable or not. Why do we have to compete with other countries? Why is it important that Scotland has routes of a similar difficulty to France or the USA? Is it important? Well undoubtedly yes if you are a climber who makes their living from sponsorship and commercial activity but to me it is not important. Does my opinion matter? Well in the bigger picture it doesn't matter as I am only one individual. But, it is just as important as any other one individual regardless of who they may be or how well they climb. What is important is the views of the majority of mountaineers in Scotland. It is the MCofS's task to represent these views. I see no desire in the general climbing public for the use of bolts in winter. Until that opnion changes the MCofS should continue with the status quo. I do see and hear a small bunch of very good climbers wanting to use these tactics. I don't know any of them and who they are is not important to me. On a more general point, Scotland is fortunate to have amny "wild" areas and cliffs. How the bolting of some these fits in with the Wild Land Policy I do not know. Hamish Black writes: No bolts in the mountains, summer or winter. Where will the on-sight new routes of the future come from if they are all headpointed today? If a snowed-up rock route isn't possible when plastered then maybe that's not really a problem. Why does a route have to be possible? Just changing the rules to make it possible doesn't seam all that sporting. The same could be said for headpointing. I fully expect any guidelines to be ignored by those that want to! Alasdair Buchanan writes: I am totally against the use of ANY bolts, under ANY circumstances in the future "development" of scottish winter climbing. They should get so covering in rime ice as to be useless. Strong activists can allways redpoint routes to produce physically demanding climbs. Our climbing is world class only because of the style is has been achieved in. We should never sacrafice this reputation. I believe "winter bolts" will be removed. I appreciate the effort put in by many people to create sport climbs. Colin Miln says: Incredibly interesting and informative comments are given below on sport climbs: I give my opinions in order for there to be a meaningful set of guidelines. Otherwise it ends up like the last set of guidelines i.e. a statement from the anti-bolting side: The MCofS process seems to lack transparency. How are people's comments going to be turned into guidelines? E.g is there going to be a series of boxes such as "does the comment agree that bolting in mountains should be discouraged" and then give a tick or a cross against this... or what?????? Looking at the posted comments on the MCofS website it looks way hard to write up a consensus opinion from them. Personally, I think Kev Howitt's past words and actions preclude him from being regarded as a neutral observer. I think there needs to be someone else in charge who is less compromised or for Kev Howitt to be balanced by someone with a known history of pro-bolting. It's not quite Dracula in charge of the blood bank but not too far off. If there is to be a set of best practice guidelines then they should really cover the development of ALL new crags/routes (inc bouldering and trad). E.g Check with landowner prior to development (e.g Limekilns?), check with local people who may be impacted by climbers (ie don't piss in someone's garden or park in their driveway) etc. Then, you could add on 1 or more suggested guidelines specifically for sport routes. As it stands it just looks like another attempt to draw a line around the existing sport climbs and say "these are OK but no more are allowed". There needs to be a GENUINE embrace of sport climbing for this attempt to mean anything. If you issue the guidelines they need to be accompanied by a statement which encourages and recognises sport climbs and sport climbers. I'd rather just let people look at each sport crag/route one at a time - leave it up to the landowners, the local people, the local climbers etc to sort things out. This is the way it's been since at least 1992 and it's worked in my opinion. Climbing's not about a set of guidelines. In general I'd say no to bolts on established mountains (e.g Dubh Loch,Shelterstone) and no to retro-ing trad. But then again I love the bolts in Glencoe and the retro'd routes on Dunkeld. Another reason to leave it to each individual case. For all the scare tactics overbolting hasn't happened in the ~20 years that drills have been around in the UK. Robin Whitworth writes: There should be no bolting of mountain crags or naturally wild places, in summer or winter. Every effort should be made not to erode the well-respected spirit of Scottish mountaineering. This spirit is clearly based around a non-bolting ethic. Similarly a ground-up style should be encouraged, and pre-placed protection frowned upon, especially in winter. 'Progress' in the upper grades is not worth the loss of what Scottish climbing means to the majority who operate at the lower grades. At low-level venues, the style of the crag is very important, and prospective developers should consider carefully whether it would in fact be a good 'traditional style' crag before bolting any routes. Regards retro-bolting, this should be frowned upon. Also, it should not be up to the first ascenionist alone to decide to retro-bolt. The first ascenionist does not own the rock, and once a route is climbed and published it becomes part of the public domain and part of that area's traditions. Andrew Morris writes: My comments are mainly upon the change in the nature of the bolting guidelines so as to no longer exclude the bolting of Scottish winter routes. I feel that it is important for this consultation exercise to be carried out, to see whether there is any demand for bolting crags for "sport mixed" winter climbing, or whether this is a creation of those who wish to "ensure that Scottish standards equal those of France, USA etc" (who says it has to - there is no competition between countries for the hardest routes is there?), or indeed to have higher grades in order to satisfy sponsers. I feel that the bolting of a winter crag with the intention of providing "sport mixed" lines whilst this consultation exercise is being carried out is reprehensible - if the view of Scottish climbers in general is that the bolting is acceptable, then that is a very different matter from simply bolting the routes whilst the questions are still being asked. For summer routes, I feel that retrobolting of existing trad lines is unacceptable, unless it is carried out with the agreement of BOTH the first ascentionist and the wider community - the first ascentionist because the route is his creation, and the community becuse there may be on occasion valid reasons for thinking "this route would be far better as a sport route than a trad route". Bolts on Scottish mountains/seacliffs (adventurous seacliffs anyway) for winter or summer routes are also unnacceptable in my opinion - winter mountaineering especially is adventurous in its nature, and I feel that for many climbers the adventure is as much a part of the experience as the technicalities of the route, and bolts clearly detract from this adventure. The guidelines for the "feel of a crag" whilst being vague are a useful idea, but their vagueness must not be used as an excuse for bolting where it is not wanted. I feel in conclusion that in summer, a better arrangement needs to be arrived at with regards to where can and cannot be bolted - the Benny Beg consultation could serve as a model for this. In winter, I feel that the use of bolts are unacceptable - experience shows that when an agreement is reached that "some places are okay", those guidelines will be twisted, bent to the very limit, and outright broken by activists wanting "just one more line" or 'just one more crag". Witness the developments in Scotland which contravene or bend the guidelines of the current policy, or the retrobolting situation on Yorkshire Limestone as proof of this. A balance for summer sports climbing may be reached eventually, but for winter I feel there is in the minds of most no place for bolts as yet. Pitch-In

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